Say What??
July 11, 2007
Based on several recommendations I’ve seen I’m now reading Sarah Sumner’s Men And Women In The Church. I’m about 80 pages into it and I ran across something that so stunned me I had to stop and have a conversation about it with my wife.
Sumner recounts going to a national women’s conference of sorts. Nearly all of the women in attendance appeared to be Christians. One evening at dinner she was seated with six anti-feminist women who had all attended Christian colleges. After they had all become acquainted she asked them this question: are women inferior to men? Amazingly, only two of them responded with an unqualified “no.” Three older women responded that they weren’t sure. Two young women under thirty both answered “yes.” Sumner asked those two young women if they thought they were themselves inferior to men and again they answered “yes.”
Well. I immediately put the book down and told my wife I had a question for her that might sound really bizarre and I asked her the same original question: are women inferior to men? Immediately after she pinned me to the ground and pummeled me like one of those guys in the UFC she asked, “What do you think?” No. Seriously. I can take her.
Actually, she immediately said, “no.” As in, “do you have any further ignorant questions tonight, dear?”
So, how would you answer that question? I’d specifically be interested in hearing from the women, but the men are welcome to answer as well. Sumner notes that the “equal in value” position of even those within the CBMW is an historical novelty that is very recent (which she states is important because one of the arguments of CBMW is that the egalitarian position has no historical support in the church).
I asked my wife this question, and after her first response, “Is this a trick question?” (she knows me too well, and was waiting for the punch line), she said, “Duh, NO.”
She had a few more choice words about men and women being different but not inferior to one another. Interesting question. I’m looking forward to the responses.
Count me in with an unqualified “no.” I have encountered this issue numerous times, especially in conservative contexts. I believe its such a problem in my Sunday School class that I’m spending the next 4-6 months on women, womanhood, and the Bible. When we’re done, I hope the women in our class can answer with an unqualified “no” as well.
Paul, thanks for bringing up a very important point. I posted something yesterday on my blog that addresses this matter in a more personal way for Christian women in general. Despite all the talk about feminism altering the minds of women, it seems that women in traditional and/or evangelical contexts remain firmly fixed in a gender specific inferiority complex.
I am praying for you and your family today.
Grace and peace,
Emily
P.S. I know this may “stir the pot” a bit (which is not my forte), but I think the prospect of women being “equal in value” but not in function is non-sensical in the end. I say this as a woman who functioned in a complementarian view for a long time and, in my opinion, exhausted the issue with research. I still love Jesus and I still submit to my wonderful husband, but I think the complementarian position is seriously lacking.
P.P.S. I would strongly recommend the following volume for a well-reasoned, biblically strong, and spiritually irenic discussion of gender issues: Finally Feminist: Why Both Sides are Right and Wrong, by John Stackhouse, Jr. Every day, I find myself more and more in line with his position.
Emily,
Thanks for the comments. I think you would really like Sumner’s book. She plainly states that she is not a feminist. She is a follower of Christ and following Christ is liberating to both women and men.
Paul - I’m with your wife on this one. But I have to say, I don’t think the men often feel the same.
Emily - Stir the pot as much as you like. I’m in total agreement.
Paul — Can ya’ll add a woman as a regular contributer for SBCOutpost? Emily (as she proves here) would be an excellent choice, but I’d be happy to see any of the women SBC bloggers out there included in that list. They all make valuable contributions to SBC life every day and have much wisdom to share that I think would greatly benefit SBCOutpost’s audience.
Lu,
From the beginning of SBC Outpost we have sought out women contributors. I have not been a part of the process of who has and has not been asked to contribute. I can tell you that there were at least two women asked to contribute from the beginning and I can only assume they declined. There is another one who has been asked and I understand is very close to accepting. [Emily, is that you?!?]
I’ll say that I agree with you, though. I think Emily would be an outstanding choice and I am going to recommend her to Micah.
Paul,
No, I have not been asked to be a part of SBC Outpost. I appreciate your vote of confidence, though. I have never considered myself someone worth listening to about SBC issues. But, I am honored by your recommendation. Thanks.
Grace and peace,
Emily
It might be the question itself that caused the mixed responses. If I were asked “are women inferior to men?, I might think to say “No” meant I was saying women are superior to men. In the immediate moment of the question I might not have thought of the third possibility of “equal.” Therefore given the choice between saying I am inferior, or superior, it is safer to claim inferiority.
Perhaps some women truly do believe they are inferior, but considering my own life I have found taking the inferior position can have an advantageous result at times, even though I personally believed I was an equal. Let me explain using myself as an example because I would not claim that my perspective is that of all women.
I value the protector aspect of men, perhaps even more than the love they could give. In other words if someone gave me the choice between having a loving husband yet who was weak in the eyes of the world, versus a bodyguard who could guarantee I would never come to harm … I would have a real struggle in choosing love over protection.
Yet a man’s protective instinct is usually directed toward the weak, not the strong. Someone who is strong can protect themselves. Therefore, if I desire to feel cared for and protected, it is to my advantage to claim inferiority such that a man will feel the need to protect and care for that which is somehow “less.” It gives a man the feeling of strength and the woman a feeling of being cared for and protected.
The superior / inferior, dominant / submissive nature of conservative circles I believe is fed by this idea.
If I claim I am an equal and am strong … it is a frightening thing to do. Because it brings about the fear of abandonment. Yep, she’s okay, she’s got it together … she doesn’t need anyone to watch over her. Let’s move on to those weak ones who really need watching after. So, yes I might be strong, an equal to men, but also have the feeling like I am walking life’s tightrope without a net. Skilled to walk the tightrope to be sure, but would feel safer with the strength of a man’s character around from time to time.
I think of the Thoroughly Modern Millie movie where Millie is trying to strike out on her own and be strong, but the woman who is actually cared for and watched over is Miss Dorothy, beautiful, dainty, and a “sweet little bundle for a fellow to cuddle.”
So, especially with the younger women, who might be single, it does not surprise me that they would claim inferiority. It is a learned mechanism to gain male interest.
It comes down to equal but different. Women are different than men to be sure. For instance, no matter how much I hang out with the guys and enjoy all the joking and carrying on, it makes me feel honored when someone says “pardon my French” after an inadvertent cuss word is spoken. Or is careful not to use crude language at all in my presence. But when a woman begins to exhibit strength of equality, she loses the courtesy of this oftentimes in our world. She is expected to make it in a “man’s world” in all its aspects. To “take it like a man,” “be tough,” etc. To be an equal almost seems to be that she abandons her own femininity.
So sometimes inferiority is a safer position to claim. It brings out the protective aspect of men, and sometimes also garners greater courtesy and chivalry. Yet it is a hard balance because evidencing too much weakness will bring about disdain and a lack of respect from these same men who then begin to see the weakness as a burden, as if they are always walking on eggshells around a woman.
So, if asked the question, I would say, “no, I am not inferior,” but please don’t read my equality and strength as “just being one of the guys” either.
Paul - That’s so good to know. Thanks!
My wife was raised in an essentially fundamentalist Christian environment, partly by born & raised in LA (uh, not Los Angeles, I mean Lower Alabama) and partly by her choice of radio programming and preachers. I came from the Bible Belt also, but from an unchurched family. When we first got married, we discussed gender roles; my idea was that we discuss important decisions, and if there was disagreement, we talk until we reached some sort of consensus. In retrospect, my idea probably would not have been effective, but she hit me between the eyes with, “Men are Biblically the leaders and in charge, and I expect you to be in charge,” a statement somewhat conflicted between its delivery and its content. As a few years passed, and she became more and more enamored with fundamentalist Christian radio. Neither my conversion, membership in conservative (not fundamentalist) Baptist churches, nor seminary changed her. By the 1990s, I believe she would have answered “yes” to your question, even while remaining conflicted internally.
It not only affected her outlook, it affected her emotionally. She suffered a nervous breakdown, and it almost destroyed our marriage. It was a long, expensive, and difficult road back to emotional and spiritual health for her and for us.
God gifts each person differently, which means that some are gifted in accounting, some in the medical arts, some in communication, etc. I have yet to see Biblical evidence that some gifts are restricted to one gender, and some to the other. Individuals also have different passions, and while the Biblical evidence is not as clear, I believe that also is a gift from God. If this is correct, and a woman (mis)understands herself to be inferior, it automatically generates internal conflict. I am not suggesting that every woman will suffer what mine did by any means; but it will generate problems, which will include depression to one degree or another.
Thanks for pointing out Sumner’s book–looks like a great read. Her views seem similar to Gilbert Bilezikian’s–Dr B. has been very helpful to me during my journey away from a complementarian/hierarchical mindset.
It’s also good to know that the powers that be are seeking female contributors at SBC Outpost. Frankly I was a little disappointed when I realized it was entirely (Caucasian?) male contributors. Surely Baptists are more diverse than that?! Anyway, good post!
During my days in Christian patriarchy, I would have answered your question with a resounding yes. I remember reading a book that described women like a copy of a copy (think a copy machine–the first copy is almost identical to the original, but if you make your second copy from the first copy, you start to get a little off from what the original paper looked like).
I believed that wholeheartedly because I thought Scripture supported it…and, I’ll admit, equated such views as on par with the Gospel itself.
Living like that was hell, though. I spent a lot of years swallowing my feelings (due to thinking they were rebellious or demonic) and just putting on a smile. But inside, a bright talented visionary woman was dying.
I am SO grateful to Jesus for meeting me on my kitchen floor and helping me put the pieces of myself back together again, and for taking me to the Scriptures and teaching me who and what I am in Christ, slowly and patiently clearing up a LOT of my misconceptions about what the Bible taught about gender and “roles.”
Another “New Baptist Covenant” speaker has been shown to have ties with Planned Parenthood of Waco.
The Rev. Julie Pennington-Russell, former pastor of Calvary Baptist Church in Waco, was one of the Sponsors of this Planned Parenthood event:
http://www.plannedparenthoodwaco.org/docs/3Rbrochure07.pdf
This conference was designed to counter “True Love Waits.” Bill Underwood’s former pastor is also listed as a sponsor of the same event.
Why is Wade Burleson supporting this charade?
Jack,
I don’t know what any of that has to do with anything on my blog or specifically this post. I’ve never even mentioned the NBC and don’t know who Julie Pennington-Russell is. If you have an issue with that stuff I recommend you take it up with someone involved. As far as I know Wade has been in a photo op with some of the organizers. If you have an issue with Wade perhaps you should take it up with him. He can speak for himself much better than I can speak for him.
I happened across your website today and noticed you discussed Sarah Sumner. You may be interested to know that we at Logos Bible Software are publishing an electronic edition of Sumner’s Men and Women in the Church. You can visit its Pre-Pub product page here: http://www.logos.com/products/details/2976. The Logos edition will be fully searchable, and all references and footnotes will operate as hotspots, immediately presenting the cited information whenever the cursor rolls over them. All this and more make this esteemed work even more useful for study. And you can help us see this product get the attention it deserves! Contact me for more info: zrock [at] logos [dot] com.
Just stumbled on this blog and for this woman in ministry it is a breath of fresh air.
thanks
Karla,
Welcome and thanks for the comment!