Heaven, I’m In Heaven
April 28, 2008
Very interesting discussion in our Bible study yesterday about “the eternal state.”
Thanks to Steve Walker for the N. T. Wright links. Another good resource I used was Wright’s Following Jesus: Biblical Reflections on Discipleship. The last two chapters are especially good regarding this subject, chapter 11, Heaven and Power and chapter 12, New Life - New World.
Here are some of the topics we discussed:
- Is heaven our final destination? (If it is, then what does Hebrews 11:39-40 mean when it says that “apart from us they (OT saints) should not be made perfect?”) [emphasis mine] What is it about us that they were waiting on (notice that it doesn’t say that apart from Christ they should not be made perfect). What is it that we will experience together and when will that take place?
- In 1 Corinthians 15 why is the apostle Paul so obsessed not only with Jesus’ resurrection, but with ours as well? If we go to heaven when we die, and we live there in a disembodied state, what does it matter if we are resurrected or not? Do we need these resurrected bodies to enjoy God more? What’s the purpose of having them back?
- What does it mean in 2 Timothy 2:12 when the apostle Paul says that “we will reign with him?” What does it mean in Revelation 5:10 when the apostle John says the same thing, but adds that “they shall reign on the earth?”
- When the apostle John describes the new heaven and new earth in Revelation 21, why does he describe it not as our going up to be with God, but God’s coming down to be with us? What does that say about eternity? The world?
The reason we were asking those questions is this: in Hebrews 11 the writer lists these great people of faith who were commended by God and concludes that none of them “received what was promised.” He describes a hopeful faith, but what is it they were hoping for? Whatever it was must have been powerful because many of them endured horrible suffering and none of them lived to see the fulfillment of God’s promises to them. It seems that whatever it was had something to do with that phrase in v. 40 - that “apart from us they should not be made perfect.” What was that? Whatever it was, it would certainly do us well to see what gave them such hope so that in sharing that hope we might also share in their faith/faithfulness.
But often modern visions of heaven are not inspiring. People in the church (in the church) get tired of the “song service” if it goes too long. Try it. Sing for an hour in your worship and come tell me what kind of feedback you get. We’ve probably all heard it before already. I know I have. In our last church we had several deacon’s meetings dedicated to solving that “problem.” You think the thought of an eternal song service gets people fired up about heaven? What about watching angels sitting on clouds playing harps? Taking Saint Peter’s entrance exam? Yes, it all sounds beautiful - streets of gold, gates of pearl, but I think many people have the impression that it will be boring and the main reason they want to go there is because at least eternal boredom is better than eternal anguish and suffering. But that is also why I believe so many think so little of what is to come and so much of what we already have. This world becomes (almost) everything. At least we have hobbies and entertainment here. We know how to have fun. So it’s eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
Could that be a part of the reason we in the church so often fail in faithfulness? We have no hope-filled vision of what God has in store for his people? On the surface the questions above may sound very theoretical and theological, but I believe they are infinitely practical as well.
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.’
Paul uses metaphors for resurrection like changing clothes and moving to a new building, because he believed that Jesus left his earthly body behind at the resurrection and moved to a new body. Jesus had changed bodies in the way that we change clothes.
This is why Paul never refers to a corpse rising or the resurrection of the flesh. He did not believe in it.
Wright is especially good on explaining the metaphors in Hebrews 1 :-
In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
The heavens and earth will be rolled up and discarded, in the way that clothes are changed.
The old clothes that have perished are thrown away, and replaced with new clothes.
The old clothes are rolled up and thrown away.
As I said, Wright is very good on explaining this ‘clothing’ metaphor, which many people up to now have failed to understand.
Steven,
I’m glad you stopped by. If you have not read Wright’s The Resurrection of The Son of God then I would highly recommend it to you, though I do think it will seriously undermine your thesis.
I don’t think Wright’s confused and question-begging book can contradict what Paul wrote.
Wright often doesn’t bother to quote what Paul wrote. You will search the resurrection book high and low for Wright quoting Paul pleading in Romans 7:24 ‘Who will rescue me from ths body of death?’
The Peter of Acts says flesh never saw corruption. The Peter of 1 Peter says ‘All flesh is grass’. Wright deals with this contradiction in his resurrection book by just ignoring the statement ‘All flesh is grass’.
Paul talks about resurrection in the sense of changing clothes or changing buildings.
It is obvious that Paul thinks the resurrected body of Jesus was a new body. Even NT Wright in his book ‘The Resurrection of the Son of God’ recognises that. However, as Wright also believes that the old body of Jesus left the tomb, Wright has to play with the ultimate in harmonisations - that the body of Jesus was smuggled out of the tomb underneath a new body.
Wright says ”Did Paul, perhaps, believe that Jesus’ new body, his incorruptible Easter body, had been all along waiting ‘in the heavens’ for him to ‘put on over the top of’ his present one?.’ (page 371)
Of course, Paul did not think that Jesus had turned into a set of human nested Russian dolls. Paul did not think Jesus had two bodies at once, no matter how NT Wright tries to harmonise Paul and the Gospels.
Like most sensible people, Paul thought of changing clothes in the sense of taking off the old clothes and putting on new ones.
Jesus had ’shed’ his old body, and put on a new body.
The Hope Of Heaven!
“For the Hope which is laid up for you in Heaven, which you first heard in the Word of Truth that is the Good News”! (Colossians 1:5)
The Hope Of Heaven!
There is a “biblical” translation that has been called “The Good News”, yet what of The Good News(The Gospel)? What was the promise of The Good News that The Messiah preached?
The promise of The Good News for the Jews and “the lost sheep of Israel”, which The Messiah preached, was recorded in Matthew 3:12,4:17,10:7, Mark 1:15, and Luke 10:9, 21:31.
“The Kingdom Of GOD(Heaven) Is At Hand”
And what was the promise of “The Good News” which Paul preached unto the heathen(gentiles) after The Messiah “was raised from among the dead”?
“Through the Good News those who are not Jews(heathens) will share with the Jews in GOD’s blessing. They belong to the same body, and they share together in the promise that GOD made in The Messiah. By GOD’s special gift of grace given to me through his power, I became a servant to tell that Good News.” (Ephesians 3:6-7)
And The Good News of The Promise!
“The Kingdom Of Heaven(GOD) Is At Hand”!
A Lively, Living Hope Of Heaven!
When Paul began his ministry, after GOD had “raised up The Messiah from among the dead”, he testified that “believers were translated into The KINGDOM OF GOD’s BELOVED SON”. (Colossians 1:13)
“THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN” HAD COME!
And “The Good News” after the destruction of the earthly “kingdom” of Jerusalem was:
“THE KINGDOM OF GOD” HAS COME!
All Thanks And Praise Be To Our Father!
Believers have a Living Hope of Heaven!
So why is it so many still believe that “The Kingdom of Heaven(GOD)” is yet to come?
“What is Truth”?
“Pilate” asked The Messiah that question after The Messiah testified, “You say that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause I came into the world, that I should bear witness to The Truth. Everyone that is of The Truth hears My voice”! (John 18:38)
Do you hear The Messiah’s voice?
The Messiah previously had testified, “The Words that I speak are not My Words”. “For I have not spoken of Myself; but The Father which sent Me, HE gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.” (John 3:34, 12:49) Later The Messiah testified to His disciples, “As GOD sent Me, so send I you”! (John 14:10)
“What is Truth”?
The Messiah bore witness unto The Truth, as He revealed The Way to The Truth of The Life, both in His Teachings and His Life example.
And The Truth of “The Good News” promise?
“The Kingdom Of GOD(Heaven) Is At Hand”!
The Hope Of Heaven
Now when The Messiah was raised from among the dead and ascended into Heaven He was given His rightful place at the right hand of Our Father and GOD, and “all power was given Him(by His Father and GOD) in Heaven and in earth?” “The Kingdom” HAD “Come”! And The Faithful “were translated into The Kingdom of GOD’s Beloved Son”!
“Giving thanks unto The Father, WHO has made us able to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in Light: WHO has delivered us from the power of darkness, and HAS translated us into The Kingdom of HIS Beloved Son:” (Col 1:12-13)
All Thanks And Praise Be To Our Father!
And Paul testified of the time when The Messiah would deliver up The Kingdom unto Our Father and GOD and The Messiah would be submitted unto Our Father and GOD once again. (1 Cor 15:22-28)
“Then the END comes, when The Messiah shall have delivered up The Kingdom to GOD, even The Father; when The Messiah shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For The Messiah must reign(after He was resurrected), till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For GOD has put all things under The Messiah’s feet. But when GOD said, all things are put under The Messiah, it is manifest that HE(GOD) is excepted, WHO did put all things under The Messiah.
And when all things shall be subdued unto The Messiah, then shall The Son also, Himself be subject unto GOD, HE WHO put all things under Him, so that GOD may be all in all.” (1 Cor 15:22-28)
“Then the END comes, when The Messiah shall have delivered up The Kingdom to GOD, even The Father.”! (1 Cor 15:22)
Question is, “The END of what?”
Paul testified, “In that GOD said, A New Covenant, HE has made the first covenant old. Now that which is decaying and waxing old is ready to vanish away”. (Heb 8:13)
That which was decaying and waxing old was the old, earthly “covenant of laws”, and “The END” was the destruction of the earthly, natural “kingdom” of Jerusalem! The earthly “kingdom” would be no more!
All Praise And Thanks Be Unto Our Father!
So believers were, and are, exhorted to,
“Set their affections on things above(Heaven), not things of the earth”! (Col 3:2)
Believers are exhorted to, “Be not of those whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame because they mind earthly things.” (Phlp 3:19)
Now why such exhortations?
“Spiritually Reborn!” A believers “citizenship (Life) was, and is, in Heaven”! (Phlp 3:20)
And believers “had been translated into The Kingdom of GOD’s Beloved Son”. (Col 1:13)
They Had A Living, Lively Hope of Heaven!
So “We do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen, for things seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal. We know that our body, the tent we live in here on earth, will be destroyed. But when that happens, GOD will have a house for us. It will not be a house made by human hands; instead, it will be a home in Heaven that will last forever. But for now we groan in this tent. We want GOD to give us our Heavenly home, because it will clothe us so we will not be naked. While we live in this body, we have burdens, and we groan. We do not want to be
naked, but we want to be clothed with our Heavenly home. Then this body that dies will be fully covered with Life.
This is what GOD made us for, and he has given us The Spirit to be a guarantee for this New Life. So we always have courage. We know that while we live in this body, we are away from GOD. We live by what we believe, not by what we can see. So I say that we have courage. We really want to be away from this body and be at home with Our Father for our only goal is to please HIM whether we live here or there.” (2 Cor 4:18, 5:1-9)
The Kingdom of GOD’s Beloved Son HAD Come and believers were translated into The Kingdom! (Col 1:13)
The END” of the old, earthly covenant was At Hand, for it was “decaying, waxing old”, and would soon “vanish away”!
And it did! Thanks Be To Our Father!
When Old Jerusalem was destroyed The END came. It was then that The Messiah delivered up The Kingdomunto Our Father and GOD! The Heavenly, Spiritual Kingdom of GOD WAS, and always WILL BE!
“THY Kingdom” HAD “Come”!
“And as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, The Messiah said, As for these things which you behold, the days will come, in which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And they asked Him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? And what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?
And He said, Take heed that you are not deceived: for many shall come in My name, saying, I am messiah; and the time draws near: do not go after them. But when you shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass, but The End is not by and by. Then said He unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute
you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. And they shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what you will answer: for I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And you shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolk’s, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. And you shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. But there SHALL NOT A HAIR OF YOUR HEAD PERISH. In your patience possess your souls.
And when you shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand. Then let them which are in Judea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter there. For these be the days of
vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the heathen,
until the times of the heathens are fulfilled. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up YOUR heads, for YOUR redemption draws near.
And He spoke a parable to them; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; when they now shoot forth, you see and know of your own selves that summer is now close at hand. So likewise YOU, when YOU see these things come to pass, YOU know that The Kingdom of GOD(Heaven) is close at hand. Truly I say unto YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS AWAY, TILL ALL BE FULFILLED.”(Luke 21:5-33)
And The Messiah testified, “Truly I say unto YOU, that this generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be done.” (Mark 13:30) “Truly I say unto YOU, This generation shall not pass, till ALL these things be fulfilled.”(Matt 24:34) (The word “YOU” in the above testimonies referred to those whom The Messiah was speaking to at that time, not two thousand, or more, years after!)
Simply, with the destruction of the earthly, natural Jerusalem, that “which waxed old” DID “vanish away”! (Heb 8:13)
The Kingdom no longer had a physical presence, in a precise location on the earth, The Kingdom of GOD was now fully of The Spirit, Heavenly. The END of the Old, earthly kingdom WAS! “THY Kingdom” HAD “Come” indeed and Truth, and believers were, and are, translated into The Kingdom of Our
GOD and Father! A Living Hope of Heaven!
And so it is believers were and are exhorted to “love not the world, neither things that are in the world, for all that is in the world, the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life is not of Our Father, but is of the world”!
Believers knew that their “citizenship” was now in Heaven, and that “whosoever would be a friend of this world was the enemy of The Only True GOD”! (Phlp 3:20, James 4:4) And The Messiah testified that “the works of the world were evil”(John 7:7) And John testified, “the WHOLE world is under
the control of the evil one”! (1John 5:19) And Paul?
Paul testified, “WE WHICH ARE ALIVE and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds to meet The Messiah in the air: and so shall WE ever be with The Messiah.”(1Thes 4:17:18) and Paul testified, “I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. And GOD WILL DELIVER ME FROM EVERY EVIL WORK, AND WILL PRESERVE ME UNTO HIS Heavenly Kingdom: to WHOM be Glory for ever and ever. Amen(Let it be so)”(2Tim4:17-18)
I believe that Paul was alive and taken up “in the clouds to meet The Messiah in the air” when the physical, earthly Jerusalem was destroyed. At that time “The Messiah came in the clouds”. And at that time of “the END” of that old age, The Messiah delivered up The Kingdom unto Our Father and subjected Himself unto HIM once again.
All Thanks And Praise Be To “Our Father”!
The Messiah had testified, “Behold, I COME QUICKLY: hold that fast which YOU have, that no man take YOUR crown.”(Rev 3:11) “Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keeps the sayings of the prophecy of this book.”(Rev 22:7) Behold, I COME QUICKLY, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”(Rev 22:12)
And the apostle John testified, “He Who testifies concerning these things said to me, “Surely I COME QUICKLY”. Amen(So be it). Even so, come Yahshua Messiah!”(Rev 22:20)
And The Messiah DID Come Quickly!
The Messiah came at “The END” of the old covenant when the natural, earthly kingdom of Jerusalem was destroyed!
And so it is today that The Faithful desire to be taken Home, for their “place has been prepared for them”! Home! Home at last! The Faithful await their final transformation, “caterpillar to butterfly” indeed and Truth.
The Faithful Have A Living Hope Of Heaven!
Peace, in spite of the dis-eases(lies) that are of this wicked world and it’s systems of religion, for “the WHOLE world is under the control of the evil one” indeed and Truth……..
francisco
Steven,
There is no doubt that Jesus’ resurrection body was in some substantial ways different from his purely physical, earthly body. Nevertheless, there were some similarities as well. His body still bore the scars of his crucifixion. It was a body that at one time could enter a locked room yet one in which Thomas could feel the holes in his hands, feet and side. If it was not his earthly body that was resurrected then the apostle Paul would say that we are of all people to be pitied and our faith is in vain.
The apostle Paul was not a Gnostic as is clear from a variety of passages, not least of which is Romans 8, 1 Cor. 6:13 and 19 (along with his whole argument about the body in that chapter) and 1 Cor. 15:53 (”…this mortal body must put on immortality…”). When I change clothes my body does not go away. I simply have a new set of clothes. As you say, the first century person would have understood this very well. Philippians 3:21 says the same thing.
Wright speaks of these realities as a sort of fourth dimension. It is, for sure, a spiritual dimension, but one that is present around us even now and has some likeness to this dimension. In fact, the new city is not just any old city and it isn’t a city with a new name. It is the new Jerusalem. A city very much like a city that we would know here and now, yet one that exists in a new way where the rules of God’s kingdom are at home - where God’s kingdom is come and God’s will is done.
Francisco,
Welcome. It appears you have cut and pasted quite a comment. I admit that I haven’t read all of it yet. I look forward to seeing what you have written.
‘This mortal body must put on immortality’?
Paul never wrote that. There is no word body in that verse.
I always feel confirmed when Christians read Paul and then have to change the text to make him talk about bodies.
Why does the text get changed by Christians? Because Paul never talks about corpses being raised….
The Gospels have the same body that was planted. Paul says ‘You do not plant the body that will be’.
Luke has Jesus deny being a spirit.
Paul says Jesus became a spirit.
John has Jesus eating fish.
Paul says God will destroy both stomach and food.
As for the proof texts of Jesus going through locked doors, that is no more a proof of a transformed body than the way that the non-resurrected Philip disappeared in Acts 8 and then appeared at Azotus.
‘When I change clothes my body does not go away. I simply have a new set of clothes.’
That is the point. The present body is one set of clothes. The new body is another set of clothes. We change one for another.
But in the Gospels, the corpse of Jesus was not ‘clothed’ in anything. It was the same body as Jesus proved to the disciples.
Jesus trashes the disciples mistaken belief that he now had a body that by its very nature could pass through walls.
Despite the Gospels going out of their way to have a Jesus who trashes belief that the resurrected body was of a material that could pass through walls, Wright tells us that the resurrected body was of such a material
Has the Bishop of Durham, ever been to a magic show?
I have been to a magic show.
You know how some of these tricks go.
The magician makes something solid go through the wall of a box, and then he at once invites the audience to see that what went through the wall of the box was made of perfectly solid material that they are quite familiar with.
What does the magician hope to prove to the audience by that examination of the material? That a magic trick had occurred of course!
Jesus does the same thing in the Gospels. He enters a locked room and at once invites the disicples to see that what went through the wall of the room was made of perfectly solid material that they are quite familiar with.
What does Jesus hope to prove to the disciples by that examination of the material? That a miracle had occurred of course!
Jesus was proving that it was really Jesus, by showing that he could do miracles
Philippians 3:21 goes into zero detail about how our bodies will be conformed.
For details, we need 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5, where it is explained that the present body will be destroyed.
From Paul’s letter to the Corinthians , we learn that converts to Jesus-worship simply scoffed at the idea that God would choose to raise a corpse. As Christians , they believed that Jesus was still alive, but they were baffled by the idea of corpses returning to life. From this we know that these converts were not converted by stories of corpses rising and eating fish
. Converts believe what converted them. That is what conversion means. But these people did not believe in corpses rising. So they had not been converted by stories of a corpse rising and being touched.
This in itself is enough to refute the idea that the corpse of Jesus rose from the dead. Because these converts to Christianity had no idea that any such thing was supposed to have happened. It can’t have been a core doctrine of Christianity that the corpse of Jesus rose from the grave, because converts believe the core doctrines of what they convert to, and these converts to Jesus-worship scoffed at the very idea of a corpse rising.
Of course, these people believed Jesus was a god, so they had no problem with the idea of a god living after the body he inhabited on earth had died, just as other people had no problem with the idea of Zeus turning into a swan and back.
In fact, there is nothing in Paul’s letters to suggest that any Christian believed in a corpse rising. Paul contrasts the scoffers at resurrection with people who took part in baptisms for the dead. This seems to suggest that the baptisers believed the dead were already alive, but whatever the truth of that, there is nothing in Paul to suggest that these other Christians believed in a corpse rising.
Or else why would Paul not contrast their correct beliefs with the allegedly false beliefs of the Christian scoffers?
Paul attacks them on quite a different front. He regards them as idiots for having a model of a resurrection that involved a corpse rising. Paul writes ‘You do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed.’ Just as a farmer sees dead seeds even after the wheat has risen, so Christians should expect to see corpses, even after the resurrection.
For Paul, what rose from the dead was a new body, made of heavenly material. Paul trashes the idea that resurrected beings are made out of the dust that a corpse becomes - ‘The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven. I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God…’
Paul regarded heavenly things like a resurrected being as being as different to earthly things as a fish is different to the moon. Paul gives a whole host of categories of different things - man, animals, birds, fish, the sun, the moon - none of which turn into each other, to stress to the Corinthians how wrong they were to think that a resurrection involved a corpse turning into a resurrected being.
None of this makes any sense if all Paul had to do to persuade the Corinthians of a resurrection was to persuade them that a corpse rose from the grave.
But it makes perfect sense on Paul’s view that the body was destroyed, and that we get new bodies. Paul is clear on this in 2 Corinthians 5 ‘Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.’
You mention 1 Corinthians 6:13
I don’t understand why ‘Food for the stomach and the stomach for food”—but God will destroy them both.’
Had Paul not read Wright where we learn that the stomach of Jesus was now part of an indestructible body?
Steven,
Thanks again for your response. I won’t get in to every point you’ve made, but I do want to say a couple of things.
First, In 1 Cor. 15 when Paul uses the words “the perishable” and “the mortal” it is not changing Scripture to translate those as “the perishable body” and “the mortal body.” At least not if you are sufficiently familiar with the differences between the Greek and English languages. It literally says, “the perishable” and “the mortal.” The question is: the perishable what? and the mortal what? Is he talking about a perishable and mortal nature? being? mind? The fact is he doesn’t use any of those words because what is a noun in that passage in Greek has the functional equivalent of an adjective in English as English speakers are left asking the above questions: a perishable and a mortal what? This is clear when we observe that many English translations attempt to fill in the void. But even for those that don’t, and for the Greek itself, we must ask, what is it of us that is mortal? How do you answer that? If he isn’t talking about mortal bodies then what exactly is “the mortal” and “the perishable?” From the argument that you have made you have, in fact, indicated that you believe the thing that is put away for good is the mortal body. What you deny by definition (or by translation) you affirm by your own argument.
Secondly, Paul says that “some” of the Corinthians questioned the resurrection, but we can by no means say that they all did nor that because some did that they believed the very idea of a corpse rising was incredulous. “Some” of the Galatian Christians believed a person must adopt certain Jewish customs and ways as a part of salvation in Christ, but their incredulity to faith alone did not make their preconceptions correct. No, Paul said that they had been bewitched and that if they kept it up they would be accursed. Thus, your argument that some in Corinth did not believe in a resurrection doesn’t prove what the early church did or did not believe about either the gospel or the resurrection itself. It only proves what some believed and Paul goes on to refute them. If they were correct in their thinking he would have simply gone on to commend them, but that’s a far cry from what we find him doing in 1 Cor. 15.
OK. The purpose of this post is not to debate the resurrection, though that might be a worthy goal. It appears you already have such a debate going on at your own website and perhaps those who are interested in that debate can see what you have to say there.
As for me, the Scriptural witness is clear about the bodily resurrection and church history is equally clear in affirming it. Novelty in theology generally leads to cult-like errors. I do not believe that the way God works is that he allows his church to exist for thousands of years in gross error on a thing like this only to reveal his truth to a modern Bible student in England or anywhere else. I’m certainly not saying that correct theology is determined by what the majority have believed. At the same time, I do believe that the Spirit of God works in and through His church and what the church says and has consistently said over the course of several thousand years, should weigh heavily in our minds as we consider what the Scriptures say. I will not begrudge you your right to disagree with the church or history in how you interpret the Scriptures, but I will also not be following your theological novelties and divergence from the historic, orthodox faith once for all delivered to the saints.
Blessings, Steven.
‘First, In 1 Cor. 15 when Paul uses the words “the perishable” and “the mortal” it is not changing Scripture to translate those as “the perishable body” and “the mortal body.” At least not if you are sufficiently familiar with the differences between the Greek and English languages. It literally says, “the perishable” and “the mortal.”’
I’ll go by the Greek, and you can change scripture if you want. Just don’t expect me to be convinced by people who change the text and then claim the new text says what they already believe.
Paul deliberately avoids using the word body. This was not a lacuna to be filled in by later translaters. (Even Wright puts ‘body’ in italics here to show it is not part of the original Greek)
The point is that Paul was lambasting people as idiots who had the model of a resurrection that involved a corpse rising.
For Paul, what was mortal was uncovered by the destruction of the earthly body, and then had to be re-covered by the heavenly body.
What was mortal would be ‘naked’ and so perishable. (and would have to be covered with a new body as flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God)
That is what 2 Corinthians 5 is about,
But what is mortal can’t be the body in this context, as the body does not become naked when it decomposes. It disappears instead.
And where does Paul ever state that any Corinthians believed in a corpse rising?
All we know is that some were taking part in baptisms for the dead (perhaps implying they thought the dead were still alive?).
While others refused to take part, apparently believeing there was no after life for mortals, because that would involve a corpse rising, which they simply did not believe in.
Paul refutes them by pointing out that there are 2 bodies - a natural and a spiritual body. First they will have their natural body and then their spiritual body.
So the fact that the natural body stayed in the grave was totally irrelevant.
Which is why Paul never needs to defend how God could reform bodies burned to ash and smoke or eaten by fish.
Such problems are only problems if you believe in corpses rising. They were irrelevant to Paul’s model of a resurrection, which is why he talks only of how there are 2 bodies, made of different materials, and how the resurrected body will not be Adam’s body - ‘The first man Adam became a created being, the last Adam became a life-giving spirit’
Incidentally, Wright never quotes that last sentence in full in his resurrection book.
Perhaps because the typology of the 2 Adams is so obvious that his readers would grasp that Paul thinks all Christians will become life-giving spirits.
So Wright splits the verse over many pages, in what appears to be a deliberate attempt to destroy the context of the two halves of the verse.
The ‘early church’ , of course, forged a letter by Paul (nowadays called 3 Corinthians) to make Paul say what he never said in his real letters.
So the witness of the early church is a witness of forgers, liars and people who developed into schisms.
As can be seen as early as Paul’s writings, of course, where already he is complaining about forgeries.
But it is clear that neither Paul nor the people he was writing to had ever heard of stories of a corpse rising, or this chapter would never have been written, and Paul would not talk about the destruction of the body in 2 Corinthians 5.
You are welcome to disagree.
But even Wright can only spin the words of Paul away by suggesting that Jesus had a new body from Heaven on top of his earthly body.
When even such defenders as Wright are reduced to suggestions that Jesus became a set of nested Russian dolls, it is time to stop changing the text of the Bible.
If Paul was not a Gnostic, then Gnostic texts seem very familiar with the metaphors and language of Paul
Take the Ascension of Isaiah chapter 9 ‘And there I saw Enoch and all who were with him, stript of the garments of the flesh, and I saw them in their garments of the upper world, and they were like angels, standing there in great glory.’
This sort of clothing metaphor fits Paul’s writings perfectly, but it is hard to see the imagery of clothing that Thomas put his hands on when touching the wounds of the risen flesh and bones of Jesus.
Paul,
Good post…the comments….not related but good. I think our view of heaven is closely related to our view of God. We’ve done our best as SB to remove any mystery of God. We’re very intellectual about our faith and we want to be able to define it, put it in order, “creed” it and teach others. So our view of heaven is very similar. We’ll be rewarded for all we did and didn’t do (I kind of hope they’ll be wine there just so I can watch the reactions). Then we’ll worship for a while, Gaither will film the longest Homecoming video ever and then we’ll have the largest pot-luck dinner ever…..and we’ll finally know it all. Boring!
If Jesus was mysterious, knowable but beyond us, creative, passionate, rule breaking without sinning, loving, non-religious, extreme…. then maybe more of us would look forward to spending eternity getting to know Him. But we’ve neutered him, made him a SB, theological keeper of the door, prohibited him from visiting the bars and prostitutes, he’s a protestor, republican, grape juice drinker/maker, non-emergent that we think we have pegged in the here and now.
I for one am looking forward to heaven. So I can see what I had wrong..repent…and then spend time getting to know Him and the saints in a way I can’t now.
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